Discuss Dollhouse season two episode 12

What did you think, fan peeps?

  1. Connie says:

    I’m not as disappointed as most posters at Whedonesque, but I do agree it wasn’t as good as the last few eps.

    We knew Mellie wasn’t going to make it, due to a comment in a previous ep. Sad, but nice closure between her & Paul.

    I was hoping Boyd would somehow turn out to be good, not uber-evil. Do you really think Tim was being straight about evil Boyd not being part of the plan from the beginning? If not, the team made it work….at least for me.

  2. Kristen says:

    I’m mainly upset that Dr. Saunders wasn’t given any closure considering this is Amy Acker’s last episode. (At least according to her, but I don’t see why she’d lie about it.) I understand they can’t resolve all the questions about her character, but I felt it was just lazy to not include her in this at all. She was my favorite and deserving of a proper ending.

    It was just an incredibly disappointing episode overall, though, which saddens me to say. So disappointing in fact it almost entirely weakened my excitement for the series finale.


  3. patrick says:

    Some things I don’t get:

    1. Was hoping for some account of how Whiskey/Saunders got from acing Bennett to being the good doctor again. At this point I am not sure how she got out of the building without dying.

    2. The story behind Boyd’s motives and Caroline’s importance. If Caroline is important because of her spinal fluid, why was it necessary for her to become Omega/self-aware Echo? Her fluid presumably didn’t change. Maybe Boyd wanted to test to see how much imprinting her body could withstand, but if so then why not bag her and take her to Tucson once he found out from Ballard that she was doing fine with the whole multiple personality thing? This all could have been solved by saying that they needed to know what a stable mind with lots of imprints looked like. But then the issue would have be psychological and not exclusively physiological, which would have complicated the story of how they knew Caroline was special from the start.

    3. So Clyde 2.0 knew all along about Boyd being undercover? Or just the one who downloaded into Whiskey? If all the versions knew then why didn’t his goons in ‘Getting Closer’ not already know not to shoot Boyd? I had assumed that Boyd had his identity wiped from Clyde’s mind.

    Things I really liked:

    A. The proliferation of tragic characters in this show. You don’t get tragedy much in American TV. We already knew about Whiskey and Bennett, but now we get Mellie. I really wish that whole thing hadn’t gotten rushed, but her character arc was great, as in tremendously sad. I loved it.

    B. Boyd’s farewell. Entirely fitting for someone who used everyone else’s trust and manipulated the defenseless at every turn. I also got the sense that Eliza was playing Caroline as conflicted about sending a doll to his doom like that. I think most of all I liked that they didn’t go for the cliche and have Caroline take Boyd out in a moment of glory. The least heroic of the good guys does the job because he lucked into being in the best position. I like it when writer’s diverge from standard operating procedure.

    C. The way all the main characters got to play their part. (except Alpha. I knew he wasn’t going to appear on this ep, but I thought having him involved would have added a nice touch)

    Things I didn’t like:

    i. This should have been at least two episodes. It had to be squeezed into one. Go to hell Fox!

    ii. The mainframe being that unsecured seemed really silly. I thought the weakness in the mainframe was going to involve some deep dark secret of how to bring it down from inside the attic. Turns out the weakness is that any idiot with a key card can get in and destroy it.

    iii. I am beginning to think we won’t get to see Harding die!

    iv. That the show and story are essentially over. I feel like I could have used more backstory, especially on Adele. How did such a noble woman end up as a pimp?

    Anyway, this is too long

    • kim says:

      Saunders wasn’t the doctor after she assassinated Bennet. She was a sleeper, and now she’s Clyde.

      Echo needed the repeated imprinting to build up the antibodies/enzymes in her spinal fluid. Wasn’t enough to take from Caroline two years ago.

      • patrick says:

        I mean how she got back to being the doctor by whenever the flashbacks from Epitaph 1 happened.

        I have seen that theory about Echo needing to block a few imprints first on Wheedonesque. But presumably that means that sometime by the middle of the second season she was in good shape to get grabbed. And since Boyd was head of security he had plenty of opportunity to do that.

        • Matt says:

          Go back and watch Epitaph One … and then watch Getting Closer. The scene you are talking about with Saunders being the doctor and trying to patch up Boyd after he got shot was originally shown in Epitaph One … and then filmed again for Getting Closer. It’s the same exact scene with MAYBE one or two more lines. Otherwise, it’s the same as far as dialogue goes. There were different shot choices which shows they filmed it again. So it falls in the timeline BEFORE Saunders killed Bennet. I think this is the answer to your question.

          • patrick says:

            In Epitaph One there are scenes of Saunders interacting with Caroline and Adele after the fall of civilization. Her face is fixed and she is responding to being called Saunders. Caroline asks her about coming back. My question is how she got from being Clyde to being Saunders again. Did they really reimprint Whiskey as Saunders instead of her original personality after the events of this episode? If not, how did it happen? She says it is a long story in Epitaph One, but it is one I wanted to get some clue about.

          • dave says:

            At the end of last night’s episode, topher had said that they got saunders out of the building.. so i’d assume she went back to the LA dollhouse and after the fall of civilization, they imprinted her as saunders to help out.. maybe something happened to her original personality.

  4. MarQ says:

    I can see where they can integrate Sanders into Epitaph 1 (for those who haven’t seen it – would recommend you do).

    It was kinda sad that Mellie ended her life verses fighting it out. The fight between Sanders and Echo was pretty good. (Fred vs. Faith – who would have ever thought?)

    It wasn’t as good as last week’s episode, but in two weeks Felicia Day shows up and we get absolute closure.

  5. gnosis says:

    I’m disappointed too at how little backstory was explained in this episode. I thought it would be a lot more epic. Still I was on the edge of my seat the entire time.

    I got the impression that Topher remote wiped Whiskey like he did Boyd before getting her out. They have to go back to the Dollhouse because that’s where she ends up, presumably to be re-printed and de-scarified.

  6. Moe says:

    Books. You know, they can still tell the dollhouse story in books or comic books.

    • generatrix says:

      Have you ever read the Buffy media tie-in fiction? Most of it (and there’s a lot), with a few notable exceptions (christopher golden’s book “Pretty Maids All in a Row” for example), suck.

      Comix, tho, that’s hopeful..

  7. kim says:

    Topher’s inside Anthony again. Wow, Enver is soooo Topher!!
    Echo’s not playing well with Caroline. She’s scrambled.
    Saunders is out and Clide is in. Amy’s playing a man.

    Topher 1.0 and 2.0 figure out Caroline was drugged.
    Topher/Anthony and Pryia see Boyd drop a syringe in the trash can on tape.
    Fighting upgrade rocks.
    Caroline/Echo wakes up and knows.

    Topher fixed the tech wipe thing in 10 minutes.
    Paul and Mellie arm themselves.
    Echo attacked Boyd. Clyde stopped her.
    Boyd says he doesn’t want to kill them……they’re his family. “I love you guys”

    Echo’s spinal fluid will be extracted to make a vaccine against imprinting.
    Paul and Mellie sabotage the cooling system for the mainframe.
    Boyd plays the recording of Adele giving the trigger phrase.
    Paul refuses to shoot her.
    Mellie fights against the program just long enough to shoot herself in the head to protect him.
    Echo wakes up on the table, syringes pierce her spine. Process designed not to kill her.

    Pryia and Anthony rescue Topher and Adelle after reaching Echo.
    Paul finds Boyd, thinks Adele’s the traitor.
    Echo and Clyde fight. Echo wins. She’s found a server room.
    Boyd and Paul come in. When Boyd puts the gun to Paul’s head, Paul asks “What’d I miss?”

    Echo shoots Paul in the leg to get him out of the way. She and Boyd fight. He gets the upper hand, hold a gun to her head.
    Topher fixed the wiping device, as we see Boyd go blank and fall over. He sits up and says “Did I fall asleep?”
    “For a little while,” Echo replies.
    She rigs him with explosives and gives him a grenade. Tells him to pull the pin once she’s gone.
    Building evacuated. Everybody waits for Echo.
    She runs just head of the explosions, makes it out.
    “Did we save the world?”
    “I guess we did.”
    Ten years later, chaos. The apocalypse has come anyway.

    In 2020, civilization has fallen. Topher thinks he can fix it, in the series finale.

    Awesome!!! I’m so going to miss this.

  8. Eric says:

    I don’t know what to say about this one. For one, even though I have seen all the episodes, I was lost part of the time.

    But, you know, I think the episode was okay. More than anything though, I did not like the cliffhanger. I mean, why show us the future for about ten seconds? I mean, that change to location for that short amount of time was silly.

    Sorry. It’s the writer in me.

  9. generatrix says:

    it was only in the final episode that i felt the hurried nature of the cancellation showed. Watching it really made me mourn for what the show might have been if fox had been more patient, if the story arc had picked up to “popping” a bit more quickly in season 1.. I still can name a score of shows that even in their best days weren’t and aren’t as well-done or entertaining as the weakest episode of DHouse. It makes me so helplessly mad that i will never get to see another episode!

    And all the posters who are asking about how things in the season opener’s forshadowing episode differ so much from things as they stood in epi 12, we all knew this kind of stuff would happen, right? I could never see Whedon choosing to sacrifice the complexity of the story, even though the series is over, by tying up everything so it matched. This way, maybe we’ll at least get a comic book or two out of it.

    i have lost one of the only two shows i watch on tv, and the one i enjoyed and looked forward to most.

    • generatrix says:

      hey, i thought this was the last episode!

      i feel happy and sad all at once; i psyched myself out, like a druggie who realizes they have more stuff, but not nearly enough to do the trick. My stupidity and the cruel vicissitudes of court-the-low-median network TV have combined to strap me into an EMOTIONAL ROLLERCOASTER.

      i may throw up.

    • :) says:

      Yeah, it is really sad. just think about the epic-ness of this take down rossum plot over a whole season. Also, I would have like to see Boyd in his role as head of rossum, and have the team go up against him as the big bad, not just wipe him. And i want to see how Alpha could play into this whole thing. So many possibilites, so little time.

  10. Joshuah says:

    Overall it was a good episode. My only complaint (not that it madders) is in the last shot they tried to do a Hollywood block buster of an explosion on like NO BUDGET, it look and felt cheep to see echo running out of the building with fire behind her. Also the building was still standing at the end, wtf was that? (on a side note this is a BEAUTIFUL website, good job to whom ever designed it. )

    • IrishWhisky says:

      Boyd probably had acting enchancments for his under-cover manipulation etc… Anyways to the above post, I suspect the big flame hollywood explosion would have only taken out part of the floor. I mean that buildings effin huge, and special effects for the building falling down would probably have been met with more criticism than the epic runnning shot

    • Aya says:

      Loved the ep, even if it wasn’t perfect.
      To touch on the whole “building was still standing” comment left by Joshuah there, let us remember that it takes far more than a single explosive in a room to bring down a building of that size, especially if Rossum has already had problems with terrorist acts against it. I’m sure they’d be prepared with much better (and more expensive) construction materials and technology.

      What was important was not the building, but the contents of that room.

      – Gotta say, not really sure how I feel about them just kind of FALLING into the mainframe room. That was a bit much.
      Boyd’s Doll smile, the “I try to be my best”… dear lord that was SO SAD, and I loved seeing his rendition of a Doll.

      God I’m going to miss this show.

      • Steve says:

        But wouldn’t such a program have been done with cloud computing? They would at least have been doing off-site backups. And what was the attic if not (organic) distributed computing?
        But, any-how, I don’t get – if they stopped it all, why did civilization end? What ended it? What did I miss?

        • patrick says:

          Did you see Epitaph One? Topher explains the mechanism behind civilization ending in that episode. But basically the issue is that Boyd was right, the tech is out there and can’t be uninvented. Even assuming Rossum didn’t have backups to what they lost when Boyd blew up, there are all sorts of people who worked for Rossum who know how the tech works. All they have to do is start another corporation or get nabbed by some existing corporation or state, and all the sudden you have something just as bad as Rossum.

      • Alex06 says:

        That wasn’t an abandoned building, they couldn’t blow it up, that’s the explanation. Plus, they didn’t have enough budget to make a CGI of it blowing up. I don’t even think that Dollhouse has ever had any CGI at all.

  11. Phoenix says:

    Wow, I seem to be one of the only people who thought that “The Hollow Men” was an amazing episode. True, it had its flaws, but the main one was time. Please keep in mind that there wasn’t enough time for exposition in this episode as they were telescoping Whedon’s five-year plan for this show into two half-seasons. Things that other people found wrong, I thought were great, maybe for my own reasons.
    1) Mellie. Yes, I knew it was coming as soon as she was activated — Whedon has always had a love of “The Dark Phoenix Saga,” but the particular plot between Mellie and Paul, with both of them being dolls and trying to trust to one thing that was real, was heartbreaking. Miracle Laurie played it to perfection.
    2) This actually had fight scenes. I loved “Omega,” but it was very anticlimactic in terms of fighting. Here, we had Tony going psycho with ninja skillz, Mellie going psycho, Echo fighting Boyd, twice, and Echo fighting Clyde 2.0. Excellence.
    3) The tragic/dramatic role-reversal of Boyd and Echo’s relationship. Possibly one of the best-played scenes Eliza Dushku has done this season.
    4) Tony and Priya screen time. Always a plus.
    5) Caroline/Echo’s importance both made sense and it wasn’t fantastic. It fit perfectly into the mythology of the show, rather than being some crazy thing like “she’s a god” or “she’s telekinetic” or anything like that.
    6) DeWitt…or, well, Olivia Williams. Best general EVER. I think she just replaced Giles as my favorite Whedon Brit.
    7) The slow reveal to each character the nature of Boyd’s duplicity, starting from Topher and ending at Paul. That was very naturally done and I loved it.
    8) Another scene of Enver Gjokaj’s incomparable mimic skills. This man (aside from being sexy) is a hugely talented actor and I hope he moves on from “Dollhouse” to being the lead of a show, because he deserves it.
    **There were two things I agree I did not like:
    1) We, as an audience, needed closure for Dr. Saunders/Whiskey. We needed to see her returning to the haunted ghost of “Epitaph One.” The lack of that was poorly done.
    2) We needed more than two seconds of Echo and Paul battling their way through LA. “Epitaph Two” needs to have its first few minutes be pure exposition as they explain just how Rossum managed to complete its goal.
    ***And, also, although this is just me, I’m a firm Paul/Echo shipper, and although Mellie’s ending was tragically beautiful, I was somewhat saddened that they didn’t hint at Paul and Echo getting back together, but that’s just me.
    But, yeah — in my mind, definitely not quite as good as the rest of the season, but still, a frakking fantastic episode.

  12. vivian says:

    i have now decided that boyds character was never strong enough or likable enough for me to accept him as this person…..given that
    though he was also the most expendable…..so if someone had to go(in an evil,don’t want to remember you fondly anyway) sort of deal,then i guess for the sake of closure…he was the logical sacrifice

  13. I thought the episode was great. I went back and watched Epitaph 1 last week right after finishing 2:11.

    After that, I wondered how come Echo was being so nasty to Adele since, in episode 11, Adele is onside with bringing down Rossum. The same question can be asked after episode 12.

    The continuing apocalypse explains that.

    It is reasonable to assume that Boyd did not keep everything in 1 place. All of the data and the technical hardware, software, and research must have been kept somewhere else. There have to be redundancies as well. I suspect that Rossum still exists and, since there are still other attics (how many Dollhouses are there around the world?), everything starts up again but without Topher. I suspect that Adele turns “evil Adele” again or at least know about the duplication of the research in other places. Remember Bennett was as brilliant as Topher, (well, maybe in different areas). There also has to be a copy of Bennett floating around in another Dollhouse.

    So they didn’t save the world – at least not yet.

    Yes, the episode felt squashed. If Whedon could get decent writers to fill in the gaps, books could give us more (B5 managed to do not a bad job of giving us backstories in the Dell series).

    Could Dr. Saunders have gotten out? I can’t remember now, but the fight between Saunders and Echo may have been on a completely different floor and she may actually have survived the explosion. This is, of course, another possiblity. Remember Clive was the other half of the geniuses who created this “thinkopolypse”. If Saunders/Clive survived, then she/he could start everything up again, assuming that the duplication of research, etc. exists.

    This would mean that Saunders would need to be wiped, returns as Whiskey and awaits …. what?

    Just some thoughts

    Can’t wait for Epitaph 2 next week

    • patrick says:

      I think you are clearly right that Rossum is still around, and also that they still have Topher’s tech somewhere.

      I don’t think it has to be anything as grand as that to explain the dislike between Adele and Caroline. So you have the world coming to an end, but it happens pretty slowly. Go back and watch the Epitaph One flashback with Dominic. Adele’s office is still in good shape, and what Dominic encountered was a guy thinking he was a little girl, not a Reaver-like tech victim. What that suggests is that the tech gets out of control before the robo-call that starts the actual crazy fighting. And during that flashback Adele is already talking about Caroline in a rather disgusted way. So I think what likely happened is that when Adele saw that things were starting to fall apart, she called back all her old dolls so that she could protect them. Treating them like ‘lambs’. Caroline objects to the paternalism of it all, probably wanting to take everyone with her and Paul to try and find Alpha’s compound or whatever Safe Haven is. They have a nasty fight and go their separate ways. So, when Caroline and Paul come back there is still a lot of bitterness.

    • :) says:

      I think I heard a line about Topher getting Sanders/Clyde out of the building. I assume he wiped her.

    • PuffyMuffin says:

      Okay well, everything in 12 locks all the epitaph’s questions. Echo just got imprinted with Caroline and down the line everyone begins to call Echo, Caroline. It becomes apparent that Caroline is in control of her body now and Echo probably had faded away or Echo realized she was Caroline. At any rate, Caroline doesn’t like Adelle for what she’s done to her. Adelle had chased Caroline for years. It’s simple as that.

      Due to time constraints we don’t get to see how the other cast members interact with Caroline which is saddening. Then down the line Caroline leaves the Dollhouse with Paul I’m assuming to prepare safe haven. They return to take everyone at the LA DH to Safe haven which Caroline finds Claire Saunders as the doctor again.

      Then the preview for epitaph two basically is saying they’re going to leave Safe haven to return to the LA DH which Adelle states “there is no place like home…”

  14. Normal says:

    These last episodes have been blowing my mind. I’ve went from liking this show to absolutely loving it.

  15. :) says:

    I want to see where Alpha fits into this. Since he’s also an Echo-like composite, can his spinal fluid work too? And that would fit with the epitaph one line about “having Alpha to thank for that.” This may be the longest two weeks of my life.

    • patrick says:

      I don’t think Alpha’s spinal fluid would work to. He is a composite because they actually loaded all his persona’s in at once. Echo is a composite because, I guess, none of the wipes were ever complete. My sense is that any doll could become a composite by Alpha’s route. What Rossum was interested in was not Caroline’s ability to become a composite. I think that was just a side effect of the thing they were interested in, that you can’t really wipe her.

      The problem is that it seems like we have at least four other dolls who showed behavior that suggested they resisted wipes to some extent. Alpha (the tendency to cut on people), Victor and Sierra (maintaining a romantic interest that in Sierra’s case predates becoming a doll and in Tony’s case came while under an imprint) and Mellie (not killing Paul).

      In November’s case I think you might be able to chalk her behavior up to the fact that her assassin protocols were conflicting with her ‘love and trust Paul’ programming that she had in virtue of being Mellie. But the other’s seem to have the ability to resist to some extent.

      As for how Alpha helps in the Epitaph era, I figure he was the one to figure out how to use Caroline’s fluids to help keep people from being imprinted. He has the tech savvy and since he has a little bit of Paul in him maybe he has the motivation to be a team player (even if he just wants to be on Echo’s team)

      • Phoenix says:

        Well, you also have to remember that none of the others had given their blood for research at a Rossum-funded hospital. That was how Caroline Farrell first came to Boyd’s attention. Madeline Costley (November) came to the Dollhouse trying to rid herself of her grief; Priya Tsetsang (Sierra) was sold into slavery by Nolan Kinnard; and Anthony Ceccoli (Victor) came trying to overcome a vicious case of PTSD after a tour of Afghanistan. Rossum wouldn’t have been aware that they could resist the wipes because, presumably, they weren’t blood-testing everyone for Caroline’s genetic quirk.

        • patrick says:

          There backstories do not preclude their having been bloodtested just because they dont mention that they were bloodtested. And anyway it would be a huge coincidence if of all the people Rossum tested only one tested positive for the cure, but then three or four other people who had the cure all happened to end up at the same house. I wonder whether they are going to find out that everyone has some latent resistance to the wipes, but only Caroline had strong enough resistance to actually keep a whole personality, while everyone else could at most keep pieces. Maybe that has something to do with Topher being able to cure everyone (I am assuming they can’t inject everyone with Carolines spinal fluid.)

    • alphaOmega says:

      There’s some info on that in Epitaph One: apparently Alpha had turned good an built up Save Haven as a shelter from the imprinting technology.
      Likely reason for that would be the influence of the Paul imprint he gave himself to discover the meaning of true love.
      Also, given his technological skills, Alpha (and Topher) are probably gonna work on the mass-wiping reversal tech mentioned in the Epitaph Two trailer.

      Personally I’d like to see Laurence Dominic finally break out of the attic and chime into the action.

  16. Mary G says:

    Csan’t wait to see how saunders got out of the building, had her face fixed. That’s the loose string i’m most interested in after the latest ep. As well as how they were able to continue using the tech if it was supposedly all destroyed in the explosion.

    • Troyfin2 says:

      Topher stated that he got ‘Saunders’ out. He told this to Paul while they tried to clear everyone out of the building. I take it that he wiped her with the remote device.

      • Victoria says:

        Wouldn’t Clyde wiped be Whiskey though? Not Saunders? Saunders was an imprint on the doll, who was Whiskey.

        They probably reimprint Whiskey with Saunders when they get back so that she can help medically, which someone mentioned above. But then it is Whiskey who Felicia Day meets in 2019, not Saunders (remember, Caroline-in-little-girl tries to greet Dr. Saunders but realizes it’s Whiskey).

        This is just more inference, doesn’t exactly matter that much. I also think that it’s interesting too that a doll who carried Clyde 2.0, Whiskey, is the one who gases the LA Dollhouse in the end.

        Also…from the last episode we know why Topher never goes up to the lab anymore…anyone still mourning Bennett? I certainly am.

        • Heather says:

          I think that by Topher referring to Whiskey as Saunders is just Topher’s way of referring to her. Note that he still calls Priya and Anthony by their Doll names, Sierra and Victor. It’s just his way of naming them. So when he tells Paul that he got “Saunders” out, he’s referring to her body – she’s physically safe.

          Yeah, I”m still mourning Bennett. I mean, she spent practically her whole life feeling like a wallflower, underappreciated as a girl and friend. She found Caroline as a friend and then gets betrayed. She finds love and friendship and m mutual intelligence and appreciation and then gets shot in the head. I’m only able to take comfort in the fact that her death was so sudden that she didn’t have time to process it and she died with a smile on her face from the thought of being loved.

  17. patrick says:

    I have a question. Over at Whedonesque lots of people are taking Caroline sending Boyd to die as a straightforwardly and obviously evil thing to do. I wonder what people here think.

    I am not sure that it is. I take it that in and of themselves, Dolls are not people. They are human beings, and they used to be people, but they aren’t right now. That doesn’t mean that they have no rights at all, because plenty of things that aren’t people have rights. Dogs, cats, corporations, etc. So I am not suggesting that people can do whatever they want to Dolls. But given that the Boyd personality is gone (bracketing issues about his having backups, which is not something that has been confirmed), and given that the death experienced by the Boyd-body is pretty much instantaneous, I am not sure it was wrong to use him to destroy the mainframe. In fact I tend to think it was the right thing to do assuming they couldn’t come up with a remote or timer controlled detonator. They thought they were saving everyone’s lives and to do it they had to kill something that wasn’t a person, or at least didn’t have a personality.

    Anyway, this is what I thought at first, but apparently lots of people think differently. I was wondering what other people thought. Does everyone else think that Dolls deserve all the same rights and respect as normal people (I want to make clear that I am not defending what Rossum was doing with the Dolls. I think it is clearly immoral to make a person into a doll, but once you have done that I am not sure that dolls deserve the same rights and respect as normal people)?

    • Kat says:

      Personally, I think that a doll has the same rights as a person, but it’s the kind of person you have to consider. I see them as children. They have limited rights, but alltogether human rights. Children are to be respected as people, right? There’s just certain precautions that need to be taken.

      As to what Caroline/Echo did with Boyd, I consider it pretty just. What would they have done with Boyd otherwise? It’s not like they could put his personality back like they did the other dolls. Sure, Topher could make a wedge with the Boyd everyone knew and loved, but that is a bit more of the playing God angle, and he could even pull an Alpha and have his evil side sink back in through the programming. There would always be suspicion. Boyd being around, as a doll or otherwise, would not help the cause, and incarceration probably wouldn’t help, either. So, it may not have been the prettiest thing to do, but it was what had to be done in the circumstances.

      • Cyndee says:

        The other thing to remember is that Echo was unhappy about having to blow up Boyd. That was clear from her affect during the scene they had before. The look on her face was one of, oh shit, I’m one of them now, in a way. I do think it’s implied that dolls are entitled to some rights or at least humane treatment. They start out being more or less regarded (at the LA dollhouse) like trained animals, but by the end, more like children because some of them are clearly evolving and learning. I mean, Echo learns to read. But the situation with Boyd is different, because it’s almost like karmic–in his last “life,” pre-doll, he was Rossum’s Hitler. So the question is not only do dolls have rights, but do evil humans have rights? This kind of thing comes up when the insane commit a crime and then they go on trial for it after they regain their sanity. Boyd may have regained his innocence as a doll, but the moment seems to call for his paying his dues.

    • Jason says:

      I think blowing him up was an interesting end to his character. Interesting and necessary. It’s not a question of real ethics; dolls don’t exist, so whether or not blowing them up is immoral is too hypothetical a question to be resolved on the internet.
      Here’s how I see it. I don’t really understand how spinal fluids effect your resistance to imprinting, so I’m kind of going to ignore that fact.
      I think that all of the dolls have souls. No not those spiritual representations of themselves that go to heaven when they die (like Joss, I am an atheist), but souls in the sense of an inner being. The innate traits you are born with rather than the ones you gain through life. I always figured that Caroline simply had a resistant “soul”. Boyd’s soul, and Alpha’s soul both have to be evil. I can easily see Boyd’s doll state going Alpha if left alone. So blowing him up seemed smart.

      • Cyndee says:

        Dolls most certainly do exist. The question might be are they human or not? But they exist, and they are conscious beings to boot.

        • patrick says:

          I think Jason merely meant to be pointing out that they are purely fictional entities, not that they do not exist within the fictional universe of Dollhouse.

          That said in his defense, I am not sure there is anything that corresponds to a soul, as he understand it. I don’t think it is at all likely that there are any distinctive behavioral or cognitive traits that we have since birth. That said you don’t have to be a theist to believe in souls. Plenty of people believe in reincarnation, which I think pretty clearly commits you to believing in something like a soul, but don’t believe in God. There are kinds of buddhists for whom these are orthodox beliefs.

          I teach philosophy, and I really think I am going to start using Dollhouse as class materials. It really gets into the thickets of the philosophy of personal identity literature. If what makes you who you are is your personality traits and memories then by hypothesis Boyd died when Topher hit him with the remote whipper. That means that the Doll Echo/Caroline killed just was not Boyd anymore, and so doesn’t deserve to be punished for Boyd’s crimes. But I get the feeling lots of people are really skeptical of the claim that all there is to being who you are is the collection of your personality traits and memories.

          • Cyndee says:

            This gets into the area of mind/body split, and the devaluation of the body. I would associate ‘soul” on this level with “consciousness” and so then dolls would have a soul. But I think the writers and creators of DH are playing with this idea that when you take away the mind, there is still something there that is pretty basic and stripped away but still aware and sensitive. I don’t think it is an accident that Caroline got involved with Rossum initially over investigation of animal rights. The entire show investigates the issue not of what it means to be human, but what it means to be aware.

            Also, the body has habitually been associated with women and African Americans, or people of non-dominant races. So it is interesting that Boyd, an African-American man, gets returned to this state of being little more than a conscious body and then is erased.

        • MzKiKi says:

          Cyndee..i’d really like to believe that Boyd wasn’t blown up simply because he’s African-American. I’d like to believe that if a white character had been chosen to be the baddest dude in the room, Joss would’ve had that dude blown up too. I mean, i know some of you all get deep, but damn..that’s a bit much.

          PS..it’s not like i don’t understand. I’m Black.

  18. Daniel says:

    I think there was significance in the camera work after the explosion. The building they evacuated had Rossum’s name on it, but the building to the right had the same architecture but was unmarked. It seems that Rossum was it’s own neighbor.

  19. Connie says:

    Upfront, mea culpa. I can’t comment on Whedonesque (they aren’t accepting newbies) and so many commenters there are upset because there was no big confrontation between Echo/Caroline following the imprint. Maybe I’m dumb or naive, but I don’t see how that could have happened in this ep. Boyd drugged Echo/Caroline so she wouldn’t alert everyone that he was the secret Rossum boss. When we first saw Echo/Caroline, she was screaming in pain. When she “recovers”, there is the BIG reveal – Boyd is the big bad! They are at Rossum and have to implement the plan immediately, there is no time for Echo and Caroline to duke it out for any extended period of time – they need to get down to business or their plans are doomed. Time is of the essence. I would think that if Echo/Caroline broke into a confrontation with each other, someone would have slapped her (probably Adelle) and told her to get with the program and – if we survive – deal with it then. Am I really off base with this thinking?

  20. bobby says:

    im glad i was wrong about all my little theories, u gotta admit i loved every minute of this ep and yes whedonesquers are just being whiners. I believe if season 3 would of began, u would see more of a caroline vs echo situation everyone is clamoring for except for me, i think they are one in the same. I just wish my last couple of questions could of been answered: why adelle and topher wound up in the dollhouse; who claire really was; and a new one, what would happen in season three. Dollhouses at war with eachother, that would of been cool.

  21. Kristin says:

    Uhhh So WHEN is the dollhouse going to be on again? I see it is canceled because of the Haiti concert!

  22. MzKiKi says:

    OK..i am not a Whedonite (although i was thinking about it), but i will say this..That Joss serves up one hell of a story !!
    Honey..when Boyd looked up and said “did i fall asleep ?”..WOOO honey..i yelled out loud “WOOOOOOO..BOYD’S A DOLL !!??? NOOOOOOOO !!” ! You could’ve knocked me over with a feather !
    Just so you know..i know my neighbors think i’m REAL crazy because of this show. I only yell at the TV during football games and “Dollhouse”. Well, i guess it’s only gonna be football games now. Damn.

Dollverse (c) 2007-2009 Kevin Beaumont. Dollhouse (c) 20th Century Fox.